This episode is Part 3 on Decolonialism featuring preservation + Blackness within Institutions with the incredible Benjamina Efua Dadzie. Benjamina is a Ghanaian-Italian researcher, with interest in West African cultures, especially Akan and Yoruba. In her work she explores agency, representation and self-determination. She produces a podcast on museum collections, and she is the Digital Editor of the open access publication ‘100 Histories of 100 Worlds in 1 Object’. Currently, Benjamina is a AHRC CHASE-funded PhD student at the Sainsbury Research Unit, University of East Anglia, and formerly a Collections Assistant in Anthropology at the Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, Cambridge. She freelances as a researcher with focus on museum anthropological collections and engagement with the public.
This episode is Part 3 on Decolonialism featuring preservation + Blackness within Institutions with the incredible Benjamina Efua Dadzie. Benjamina is a Ghanaian-Italian researcher, with interest in West African cultures, especially Akan and Yoruba. In her work she explores agency, representation and self-determination.
You can listen to Benjamina on African Object Lessons Podcast.
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Different realities are not going to knock at your door and say, hello. There's a different reality. Get to know me. You know, you have to go into the world where the different reality is and engagement. Benjamin, if you're dad, AK is a Ghanaian Italian researcher with interest in West African cultures, especially a Khan and Yoruba.
In her work, she explores agency representation and self-determination. She produces a podcast on museum collections, so please listen to that. And she is the digital editor of the Open Access Publication at hundreds Histories of hundred Worlds in One Object. Currently, Benjamin is a A H R C Chase funded PhD student at the Saintsbury Research Unit, university of East an I'm formerly a collections assistant in anthropology at the Museum of Archeology and Anthropology in Cambridge.
She s as a researcher with Focus on Museum Anthropological. Collections and engagement with the public. So welcome Benina. Uh, it's really, really great to have you join. Thank you so much for having me, and I feel really honored that, um, you invited me to chat. So one of the first things that. That came to mind, especially at this moment in time, is obviously this is all about decolonization, preservation and blackness within institutions.
And, um, I'm gonna basically, Repeat one quote, which is from Mayor Andrew. Um, and it's a poem, so I'm just gonna start off with this and then we can like move forward. And I think this to me is really important just because it kind of sets the tone of like, why on God's green Earth like, You know, we go through challenges.
Why it's so important for us to uplift ourselves and empower each other and empower like people in our communities. So, yeah. Uh, this is basically my Andrew's poem. Still. I rise. So does my sassiness upset you? Why you've set with gloom? Cause I walk, like, I've got all worlds pumping in my living room, just like suns and like moons with the certainty of tides.
Just like hope swinging high. Still our rises. Did you want to see me broken? Bow head and load eyes, shoulders falling down like drip at like teardrops, weaken by myself. Or cries. Does my hotness offend you? Don't you take it all pretty hard because I laugh like I've got goldmines digging in my backyard.
You may shoot me with your words. You may cut me with your eyes. You may kill me with your hatefulness, but still like air, all eyes. Does my sexiness upset you? Does it come as a surprise that I dance like I've got diamonds at the meeting of my thighs? The huts of history shame. I rise up from a past that's rooted in pain.
I rise. I'm a black ocean leaping and wise welling and swelling I bear in the tide. Leaving behind nights of terror and fear. I rise into a daybreak that's wonderfully clear. I rise bringing the gifts that my ancestors gave. I am the dream and the hope of the slave. I rise. I rise. I rise. Beautiful. So literally the first question I have for you is, you've worked and developed your career in archeology, anthropology, museum studies.
How did your interest start and how has it shaped your perspective? I think my upbringing was key in the career path. I chose. I grew up in Italy, in northern, Northern Italy, north, uh, northeast, um, in a city called Verona, which it's, it's known internationally perhaps, uh, for the story of, uh, Romeo, Juliet.
And as you can imagine, um, with Italy and specifically with Barona, I grew up around the remains of history. Specifically we are talking about, uh, Roman, um, Roman Empire remains. And so, um, for example, every, when I was in high school, every morning I would pass by the, the arena, uh, twice, you know, to go to school and, and to come back home and.
There has always been culture. The idea of culture and the the, the visible science of culture in the landscape has always been part of my, my. Upbringing has always been very important. Um, not necessarily because of its sort of, uh, grand, uh, presence, but mainly because, um, it is just everywhere. It's visible and it's part of, of, of your life.
Uh, the, the, you know, the spaces, the mundane spaces I engage with every day where steep in. Those remains. And so I think I was drawn to it and in school, I, I liked, uh, what we, we will classify as humanities. So, you know, uh, literature, um, history, uh, art, geography, um, civics. Yeah. So I really like all these subjects and so, When it came to choosing the career path, I just went with, uh, the career that would allow me to, you know, still engage in all these subjects and still be able to, um, to learn about, um, all these disciplines.
And so yeah, archeology sort of, um, came into the picture. There was, there was, um, A high school club, uh, of archeologists. Um, and they were taking a trip to Florence and, um, I had not had much chance to travel to, to other places outside my region, the Venetian region. And so that was a really exciting time for me.
And we had some classes at the University of Florence and, and so from there I just decided that was my path. That was what I was interested in. Mm-hmm. And to the second part of your question, um, how it has shaped. My perspective, I think the sort of affirming my own interest, um, and sort of making it, um, acceptable to, um, to my community.
And when I say my community, I mean family, friends, um, and just people within my network as a, as an African person, as a, as, uh, a person of an immigrant background who oftentimes, um, you know, The career choices that we have are very much vocational, which, you know, they are, um, understandable because many, many families are, um, are relying on, on that social mobility that the vocational, vocational, um, career choices like, like in the life sciences, uh, provide.
And so I think affirming that desire to pursue a path that, um, perhaps was not as usual as, um, as it would've been in, in our community, I think that really, um, helped me to, to define myself and to have a voice and be, um, sort of, um, firm in my, in my. Decision making and to take responsibility. Um, because, you know, if this career choice didn't work out, you know, I would be the only person to, to account for it.
And so, yes, I think throughout the last 10 years that I've been in this sector, and in one way or the other, the guiding principle has very much been staying accountable to myself. I think that has shaped. In many ways, um, the sort of, um, person that I have become and the, the, the attributes that I have developed as a, as an adult.
Yeah. Amazing. Because I remember like meeting you for the first time at uni and being like, I've literally never met an archeologist before. Like, there's nobody in my proximity that. Is in archeology. And I just remember being like complete in awe, just being like, what? This is amazing. And then yeah, just listening to like your trajectory and like yeah.
Even the fact that I remember we went to the Oxford, is it Sade Business School about, um, the Africa Conference at the time, the Africa Business Conference. And that again, like that was a space where I felt like, There wasn't really, there wasn't that many people who had an archeology background, so. Yeah, I kind of felt like you were really onto something and your path and your career path was so interesting to me and it really intrigued me because I just felt like, yeah, this is definitely something where I'd love to see more people access these spaces.
Um, have you come across any challenges surrounding like young people getting into archeology? Especially in the UK actually, so. Archeology as a, as a, as a discipline. And this is obviously based on my own experience in the last, um, the last 10 years, uh, sort of being inside and observing. Um, so it is not based on sort of any.
Sort of scientific, uh, data, but more, um, on anecdote. But it seems to me that archeology is a field that does struggle to attract young people. And, um, depending on, on. The type, uh, of specialization you go into. It can also be a very, uh, you know, demanding, uh, career choice. And though it is demanding, it does not have the sort of, uh, financial, uh, reward, uh, compensation that other career choices, uh, may have.
And so all these things combined make it, um, Somewhat challenging and obviously when it comes to, uh, people from our community. So, uh, young black people, um, whether from immigrant, uh, background or, um, Even with background that has been, um, is generational in terms of their, uh, presence in the UK or Europe, it can be challenging because, you know, for example, if you, if you need to sort of build up experience, um, you might need to do volunteering and, um, not many of us can afford to do volunteering or, you know, um, sort of work for free or, or.
You know, have family that will pay for us to, um, to gain those experiences. Um, definitely. And you know, we are talking also about, oftentimes, for example, for field work archeology, we are talking about oftentimes working in remote areas or areas that are not, uh, as diverse as we would like it to be. And so, uh, we are also talking about, um, Sort of social challenges of, of being able to engage with people, uh, and people understanding who you are and therefore creating a space where you also can be comfortable.
Uh, and so from my own experience and also from experience of colleagues that I know, these have been the challenges that have hindered, um, people of immigrant backgrounds or people from um, um, you know, from. Working class, um, backgrounds, good financial challenges to sort of be part of this discipline.
Definitely. I wonder also because when I'm thinking about archeology a lot of the time, I think I then start to think about my own disciplines of like, especially construction and I think about, okay, so. Is there a possibility where archeology and construction can actually work together? Because especially when we're talking about certain spaces or rural spaces, uh, we are talking about, you know, land use.
We are talking about historical times of, you know, in the ages and the ancient times when they used to preserve a lot of their scrolls or a lot of their. Um, their, yeah, their information or whatever it's that they use in the ground. And so now I'm thinking to myself like, okay, so are there ways in which, you know, we go back to this whole thing about preservation.
Is there a way in which construction and archeology can actually work together? Where we, we, we encourage more young people to get involved. We actually show them more about, you know, maybe recordings or videos of how, you know, we're extravaga. Sat in, but we're doing it in a, in a, in a way that's actually good and actually isti with the culture.
Cause I think one of the things I have seen a lot of the times is like a lot of people, a lot of people are going into different sites and taking historical. And, and cultural, um, value of some sort, and then kind of like sending it onto other people or sending it onto organizations and not really take into account the community that's already existing that actually are, you know, preserving that they're trying to record, that they're trying to create even they're trying to even like, merge technology with it.
So they're able to translate that into, into new possibilities. Yeah, there's definitely, um, in fact there is an area of archeology that, um, specifically works with, with developers. Um, and I guess, um, You know, architects, uh, are part of the developer ecosystem, but yeah. Um, commercial archeology or developer led archeology does exactly that.
It, it basically conducts, um, archeology, uh, Uh, as part of the development of a site, whether it is, uh, infrastructure, so, you know, uh, roads, uh, bridges and sort of public infrastructure or, um, housing and especially in areas or regions where we know because of the history of the region, there's reason to believe that, um, There might be archeological remains archeological material.
Usually it is. It is a requirement as part of planning and permission. For development led archeology to, to conduct surveys. And so, you know, this happens many times like in in, in k in the uk. Uh, certainly it happens in, um, in Italy and in actuality, um, a lot of the developers actually don't really, they don't really like the requirements that, uh, planning permission, you know.
Has in terms of them conducting, uh, uh, commercial archeology, allowing commercial archeologists to, to be part of their, of their development because it slows down their progress. And, um, and obviously it's also costly because they oftentimes have to be the one to, um, to foot the bill because they're the ones interested in developing that land.
And so, Of course, uh, I mean there's, there's an entire area of archeology, uh, that, that specifically works with, uh, developers and therefore there's room to, um, create infrastructure, whether it's public or, or sort of more residential and housing. There is room to. Create, uh, spaces that incorporate historical remains and incorporates the, the, the history of, of the, the, the land and therefore creating sort of public landmarks.
As part of the, the design of, of the landscape, but you have to have people that are interested in this. And, and so it seems to me, and you know, uh, perhaps there's a negative view that I have, but it seems to me that, um, a lot of developers are very much interested in their bottom line and sort of the financial gains that.
Their work will provide them. And so history and archeology just is, um, sort of an, an instance to their projects, which is sad to be honest, because that's almost like that's, that should be a reasoning for why you are. You know, understanding the land, that's the reasoning why you wanna, you wanna develop a land because you actually understand and you have sympathy or you have care for what was there before, right?
Like, that should be, that should actually be part of like planning. Like I think there's definitely a lot of changes that needs to be made in planning systems in the uk. Um, and there's a lot that comes up. Um, in terms of its rigidness and I think that's just how the UK is. Um, unfortunately in terms of just being so rigid and it does for me personally, take out so much of the creativity and the possibilities that could emerge.
And I think that, you know, as you're speaking, it does kind of make me think about, you know, how do we build that typology or typography for. Women, black women, to be able to preserve that culture, preserve that space, preserve what was there before, and develop it in a way that gives. Kudos to to, to that, you know what I mean?
It actually gives kudos. Like we're creating things not based off just emptiness. We're, we're creating things based on historical artifacts or historical, um, ancestry or lineage or the culture that was there before. And I think to lose that is to say that, well, firstly, you don't care about the environment.
Really and truly because if you cared about the environment, you'll try to understand what was there before. And I think that should be a, a major plus for developers, um, that it should be a major. And that's why I always say like we need, we need developers that actually care. We need developers that don't just look at it as like an economic or a financial output, but actually look at it as, okay, this is an opportunity.
That provides scope for us to learn more about what was, what was there before, and to empower and to look at the infrastructures and the communities that are surrounding that as well. And I mean, to do that we require people to be, and in this case, um, we are talking about black women specifically to be in positions of leadership.
So, you know, If we are talking about, uh, developer led, uh, archeology, we, we need black women who care at the, at the leadership level of these development companies who are contracted to do this kind of work. So, you know, are contracted to develop a specific land and therefore have care. Um, have care for the environment and so, and history to be able to, um, you know, sort of lead with care because I mean, we can't really rely on the goodwill of corporations.
Yes, yes. It sort of counter to their, their whole business model. The, the sort of, the goal is to make money so you know, the faster you can build, um, the cheaper you can build. The higher you can sell it for. You know, those are the goals, those are the benchmarks. And so to think that, and obviously this is a very sort of room and groom view of, of the world, but, but I'm, I'm under no sort of, um, I, I, I don't think we can just sit here and, and hope.
For people to, to be what we wish for them to be. We have to be intentional and create, create the companies. Um, uh, we would like to work with, create the positions for, um, the people that would advance the, the, the care leadership I'm, I'm talking about, because otherwise it, it is just, it just won't happen.
Definitely, definitely agree. And also like, so a couple, what was it last year or the last year before you were part of the team that moved a few of the, was it the sculptures or the statues from the British? Museum, I think it was, or the Cambridge Museum. So I was work, this was last year. Last year, October, I was working at the Museum of AR Anthropology, uh, at the University of Cambridge.
Um, which is, um, so the museum is, uh, is um, The University Museum, part of the, the Cambridge, uh, museum's consult team. And there was, um, a position of a Benin bronze, which I call it, um, but it did not, it did not come from the Museum of Arch Anthropology. It came from, uh, one of the university colleges, uh, Jesus College.
Um, so the, the bronze was, um, It was gifted to, um, to Jesus College. Uh, but it was originally part of the, of the material that was looted from the Kingdom of Benin. In, um, southeastern Nigeria in 1897, and so there had been for the past several years ongoing work to, to restitute this, uh, corporal back to, to Nigeria and.
Even though I, obviously, I, I didn't work for Jesus College, but because the Museum of Arch Collision Anthropology was part of the Benin dialogue group, the museum hosted the, the delegation that came from Nigeria as, as part of the, sort of the ceremonies surrounding. The, the event of the, uh, restitution.
So there was a reception with several, um, delegates, uh, from Nigeria, including people from the, um, National Commission for, um, for sort of monuments, the National Commission that deals with, uh, monuments and museums in Nigeria. And also, um, there was the prince, uh, from the kingdom of, uh, of Benin to not be confused with the Republic of Benin.
Two separate, um, to separate, um, Entities. Yeah. And so I was just, um, part of, of the staff that welcome this delegation, I did work on documenting and processing several, uh, materials from Benin Kingdom, uh, which the museum now believes. To have been part of the material that was looted, uh, in 1897. And so when I was working there, one of my, um, one of, of my tasks was to actually physically separate, uh, the material that, um, the museum believes to have.
Uh, Been part of this 1897 loot from the wider, uh, African, uh, and Nigerian, uh, collection because, um, oftentimes, um, in museum storages, um, several. Objects from, um, sort of different areas or even different, uh, sort of regions, you know, within the same sort of country can be stored together. And so part of my work was to really be intentional about, uh, creating separation.
Uh, Between, uh, these materials that, uh, the museum believes were part of the loot. The purpose of that is because the museum was expecting, and I believe now, um, this thing has arrived, but, uh, the museum was expecting that a restitution claim would've come from Nigeria or, um, these, these artifacts, uh, to be repatriated to, to Nigeria.
And so, I think one of the great privileges of my time at, uh, at Cambridge was, uh, having the opportunity to, to be part of this process of, of, um, of returning, you know, even though in a very small part, so my, you know, my, my role was very small, but it just felt really good to be part of the. Of a moment in time where, um, you know, when we are finally recognizing the necessity to do the right thing.
Definitely, definitely. And how do we, just from that kind of understanding as well, like how do we continue to challenge blackness in our institutions? Um, our museums, our spaces are Yeah. Spec, I think specifically institutions and where can it lead us? I've always felt like, I've always felt like, uh, showing up, uh, as myself, doing my job and allowing others to sort of make their own judgment.
And, um, when I say doing my job, I, I don't mean just sort of. Fulfilling the tasks of my job description, but also doing what it feels right to do. And so, you know, for example, if, um, If there is knowledge that I know I can have access to through my, my networks, through my, my unique position, that is something I'm going to, um, I'm going to do.
And you know, there are lots of jobs, lots of tasks that are, um, are unpaid, but I think we can't, and, you know, I know a lot of people sort of disagree with, with this, um, this way of thinking, but my feeling is we, we cannot afford to. Not do the right thing. You know, there aren't many of us. I mean, in many of the places I've worked, I've studied oftentimes and obviously now is changing.
Uh, and it has been, you know, the last, I think the last maybe three, four years, I, I can really see change. But, you know, oftentimes I've always been the only, uh, black person. And so there is no, uh, time to, um, To and room. There's no room to feel like, oh, I'm not going to do this because, you know, I'm not being paid for it.
I think I'm not just doing it for the institutions, I'm also doing it for the next person that, um, that will come after me. You know, I had this conversation with a colleague last year actually. She's also, uh, a black woman, and we're just talking about being in this, um, this. Sector, this field. And I was telling her, you know, we, the positions we are in demands excellence from us so that we can make way for those who will come after us.
We have to be so excellent, right? That our sort of, our, our skills, our abilities sort of just proceed. Uh, you know, our, our sort of. Physical presence, right? So that other people like us can find space, uh, in this sector. And it's, it's sad cuz that requires doing sort of double, sometimes triple the, the work for half of the reward.
But we, we are not yet at the point where we can afford to, to rest. That's how I feel anyway. Hmm. It's so hard and as you're speaking it is, it is really hard. I think when you're talking about this excellence that we have to be able to, almost like India. I also feel like that's a very West African, and I say this West African, cause I, I, I feel like I'm always in spaces.
Specifically with Nigerians and Ghanaians and also Ghanaians are all over the place at the moment. Like you, you guys are like all of you. You're coming out like, I see you all the time. And it's actually interesting cause I don't see a lot of Nigerians anymore, but a lot of Ghanaians are popping up and I love it.
But I'm having all these different conversations with all of our communities and it's really interesting because we are doing so much work, so much labor, and we're also. In a space where we are also fighting against all kind of different injustices as well as like, you know, all these kind of, I guess, microaggressions or aggressions that are coming to, um, through generations.
And that might be because we're entering into digital spaces now and we're becoming a lot more active and we're a lot more vocal, I guess, on social mediums. And so I think that's also allowing us to understand where we position ourselves. Um, and I think. When I think about, you know, you know, excellence of people, I also think about specifically black people.
I think about the downfall of us at the same time. Um, and the sacrifice, the giving, the, uh, if you are, if you are trying to do any kind of work that is very much like. Very, a hard skill or it's, uh, a trade that is maybe in need of that technological, uh, response or that technological aid. It means that you are seeing that vision, you're seeing that future, um, but you might not necessarily cost.
Into that future yourself. You might have to, you know, create that legacy so other people can actually cross those paths. But at the same time, it means that there's so much sacrifice, there's so much of that. We talk about unpaid labor. Yes, there's so much unpaid labor in that, and there is no understanding or transparency of how much unpaid labor someone has to undertake to be able to like, you know, force that path for other people.
At the same time, we go through this mechanism where, you know, These, these, we have these social constructs of racism, especially in terms of, you know, us that are self, the equator. And so you are going through all these isms, you are carrying all this baggage. You are challenging, kind of like the status quo, and you are challenging society.
And all the, the systems are kind of like, at this point in time, they are crumbling. Um, but at the same time there's that empowerment. And that empowerment comes from other, other women that are like you, that are in that space, that understand what you're going through, um, who understand that the vision is not just about us, it's about the next generations that are coming forth.
But also it's about not thinking too much about money. Um, not thinking too much. Obviously it's good to like, you know, get your peas or whatever, but it's also good for us to reflect and to, to go back to this understanding as what she said before, as is of care. Like where does care come into the work that we're doing and how do we process that care, how do we leverage it to other people?
And yeah, just continue to create that ecosystem. And that fun of support, because even if you are a lone wolf in that kind of trade or in that, that space, you are always, you are always gonna need someone. You're always gonna need people to really hold space for you or to support you. And I think it's so imperative when I say, you know, Having the, having excellence.
I don't, I don't mean, you know, don't, don't take breaks and because you know, you can, you cannot come and kill yourself. Mm-hmm. You know, the, the, the challenges that we are dealing with in the institutions that we are in, those challenges took, um, took years, right. Took. Years to be built, hundreds of years to, to be built.
And so, um, a lot of the work that we are doing, they are the, the sort of, the fruit of that labor would not, um, would not be visible probably in our lifetime. And so, It is necessary to take break. It is necessary to, to, you know, uh, take your annual, leave, all of it. Uh, you know, all it, it is, it is necessary.
Um, and, you know, they are only, um, Two of you, you know, you have to make room to, you know, to be gone and, and they're going to, the institution is going to find a solution because, uh, you are not you. You like the problems that. A lot of these institutions have, like, you are not the help that they need. It goes far beyond.
And so that's something I want to, um, want to make clear. It is important to, um, to take care of yourself as you do. This work of caring for others and for, um, for the artifacts, uh, in my case, the sector I work in, and, you know, to care for the knowledge that you are producing or contributing to. I also wanted to ask like, what challenges have you come across about being a lone Wolff in archeology?
Specifically, I think it is important to recognize that a lot of the times you need to seek help outside. Uh, you need to create communities, um, like-minded communities of, of, uh, of people who understand your, your experience. You have to find that outside, but also when you're in the inside. There are people who are willing to engage and to listen and to make space and make room people who can be advocates for you when you are not in the room.
Um, it is important to recognize those people and engage with them. I think I. The gift of the, of this moment that we are living in, I think for the past two years, the gift of this moment is that people are making themselves available to, to engage and, and so I think it's important to recognize that and to, um, to engage with people who are willing to, to, to engage with you and.
I don't know. I mean, I don't have, I don't have sort of specific examples. Um, I know for sure that when it comes to field work archeology, that was not an easy place for me. And in fact, um, that's, um, something that's, um, the side of the discipline, the discipline I left, um, because it just wasn't for me, the, the culture.
Wasn't for me. Um, and it was a very isolating experience. And, and that's okay. I mean, I, I'm very happy, uh, in, uh, the museum space and it was the right decision for me to leave, to leave like field archeology. And, and I think it is, it is okay to recognize that sometimes the space is just not right for you.
Um, and that's, That's absolutely fine. What is no case to sort of lose yourself trying to make the space right for you? And, and that's what I, I feel anyway. Yeah. Um, for preserving our West African culture, um, I think is also really integral to how we can restore, repair and c cise practice of care for ancestors, traditions, and lineage.
Um, what conflicts have you come across and what do you, or what, yeah, what do you think as black folks, especially with maybe a more of a pan-African, um, heritage, what do we need to be able to preserve, especially in these aspects? Um, one thing I'm very concerned about, but I hope I'm doing, uh, something about it is, uh, I try to, uh, I don't know how, um, Sort of effect activities, but I am super concerned about our, our oral history.
Oh my gosh, yes. Yeah. No, I understand. Yes. Ok. Speak to me. Speak to me. Speak to me. Speak to me. Yeah. That's something that really concerns me because, you know, as we grow, um, as we, we, we step fully into our. Adulthood, the generation of our parents and the generation of our grandparents, they are leaving this earth, right?
And so, uh, especially being, um, us being in Europe, uh, or, you know, in the west, um, so, you know, including sort of, um, um, America and um, and. Perhaps place like Australia, so sort of the western world and not having direct access to our extended family. Um, and to the context within which our ancestral history developed.
I really worry that we will not have anything to show for it. And so our oral history is something that concerns me the way. Well, the lack of the, um, uh, generational, um, inheritance of our oral history, that's something that concerns me. Um, the way I have, or I am trying to, um, to change something about it is through, uh, through the work I do.
Um, so for example, uh, up until. The start of this year, I was part of Danana Project, um, which is an online archive, which at the core it preserves Ghana's history through, uh, the accounts of elders. Uh, and so. Oral history is at the very core. Um, and, and sort of the, the memory of the past. Um, the personal memory of the past is at the core of, of that digital archive.
Uh, and so if, uh, if anyone is interested, um, the website is, uh, diana project, uh, org, um, dot org. Um, and there you can find, uh, interviews and essays and. Audio stories, uh, with, um, Ghanaian elders. Um, sadly some of, uh, the people that we, um, well I say we, I, I'm no longer part of the team, but some of the people that the, another project engaged with in the past, um, are now gone.
And so it really, it really shows, demonstrates the, the importance of. Such work. And you know what? I find that, um, when, when I was, I was trying to like engage with elders and sort of get interviews and chat with them. They were at least the ones that I, I worked with, they were all very happy. To, to talk to us.
Um, and oftentimes they lament, they lament the lack of that generational inheritance. Um, they, they are unable to have that with, uh, the generation after them. Uh, and they lament that. And so, They're very open to, to engaging with another project. And I think, so that's, that's one, one thing that concerns me in sort of more of my, um, my big institution, museum work, uh, the way I try to change, uh, things and to keep our, um, our knowledge, our history.
Uh, present is to make sure that that is the history because, you know, there are different forms of knowledges. The, the knowledge that, um, is sort of seen as the, their knowledge, right? That's what becomes the official version of the story. But the question is always who is providing that narrative? And so I think these are some of the ways we can, uh, we can.
Sort of carry on and try to, to preserve, uh, our history. Hmm. Yeah. That's super, super interesting and I think, yeah, the all history part of it as well. Is definitely one of those aspects where it's like our ancestors, our grandparents, our elders are literally walking history books and the deeper that we understand more about like colonial thought or Colonial Colonialization, we're able to understand more about.
The ways in which people have like literally extracted so much from the ways in which we write. The reason why I think oral histories are so important, integral is because it's our way of communicating our freedom. I think it's also our way of being able to communicate times of the past. And especially in terms of the ways, ways in which, in colonial times, people used to come to our homeland and basically like burn them a light and, and build like, like there are episodes in which, for instance, like the negative movement where they actually talk about the ways in which.
Colonizers came through and literally tore different spaces apart, whether it's the construction of spaces, whether it's the, the books that people used to write in, or the ways in which people used to like, you know, cook or stuff like that, like all these, all these tasks or all these everyday things that we wouldn't necessarily think about today.
A lot of them have been burned down, and so we've cultivated these pockets in which we were able to speak. And communicate and try to build legacies off of our voices, off of our narratives through, through these generations. And they change all the time, but at the same time, that's the legacy. And so as you're talking about all these oral histories, you're talking about the preservation of them and the importance of them.
It speaks volumes to how we prioritize, especially in West African culture, how we prioritize our elders and white elders are such like, they're literally like, They're the, they're the, they're the, the kings and queens, they're royalty. Like we can't just come to them in anyhow. Like we have to, we, we, we come to them.
We have to come to them in a way that's like hella humble. Like you, like it's, it's, it's, and it's, it's interesting cause I think our culture is definitely changing where people are not able to grapple with that understanding. Like these are elders. There are some people who I've come across, even like on social mediums, for instance, where.
The significance of elders is not really a thing, but I think it's so tied into our tradition. It's so tied into our culture where it's like we have to respect the people that came before us. And so that's why the all traditions and all histories play such a big narrative into, you know, how we then progress in the future.
And I think it's really important that you've talked about that. Cause it is, it's our legacy is, is we need to continue that legacy. And that's part of the excellence as well that you're talking about because. It's not enough for us to just to, you know, we've become this society, especially here in the UK where black folks specifically, we've become very much about like the business of things.
We've become very much tied into, we need to make as much money as we can or whatever. But I don't, I hope that we don't get to a point where we forget that we still have elders, we still have our parents, we still have all these negotiations of a space or all these negotiations of how our cultures need to be preserved.
Um, and then also how we can continue those oral histories. So, um, not just thinking about it in a sense where we just give it out to every single person, but actually think about like, okay, who is it that we're giving this to? Because colonialization is still happening. You know what I mean? Like Colonialization hasn't just stopped.
It's a mentality like you have to be in order for you to take something from someone and, and feel like you have to take without. Any mercy without any kind of like kudos or whatever, especially from black communities, that's a colonial mindset. And so by understanding how we give and how we take and it's reciprocal and how it's mutual leads us to understand more about how we wanna do that for the next generations.
And also understand how the other generations before us have done it as well. You know, in in a, can we actually have. We have a proverb, uh, which is associated with, and I think most people actually know the imagery, the, uh, sankofa, the sanko imagery. Oh, yes, yes. Which actually sanko, uh, mean literally means go back and fetch.
Um, so, um, You know, the imagery of the, the bird, um, turning, turning around and sort of, um, sort of facing forward, but turning its head around to fetch, um, the, the egg. So, For me that, uh, that really captures the essence of what we are talking about in terms of, uh, ancestral knowledge. You cannot go forward if you don't fetch back, if you don't, uh, sort of gain from the knowledge of, um, of your elders and, you know, if, if you don't, you are not rooted in the.
In your ancestral knowledge. Uh, so that's, that's very important. And you know, when you talk about sort of this, um, what some also might call, uh, neo-colonial thinking and neo-colonial attitude, I think we also have to be mindful of the way we perpetrate that, uh, that approach through the. Sort of, uh, surface power that we feel that we have.
And when I speak about this, I mean also, um, for example, um, you know, a lot of the times when we go back home the way we, we, we embed ourself in, in the society and in the life of people back home. It's a lot of the time it is accompanied by those, uh, sort of new colonial attitudes. And so that's something that I think we need to also be mindful of.
And when we engage in the knowledge that our elders actually offer us, uh, that is a way to be less of, sort of be less of, of. Um, to produce that attitude of, uh, new colonial, uh, approach and thinking. Definitely, definitely. Um, what is your interpretation of liberation and freedom? Ooh, that is a big question.
It's a big question. Uh, especially, and I wanna base this again, just always, I think especially with this podcast, uh, episode is it's really about our kind of lineage. It's very much about, you know, us as black women, what is our freedom? What does our liberation look like? Cuz I think, um, there's many times where people try to like, you know, try to equate it to themselves.
But I think again, You know, our traditions, our history ourselves, and positioning ourselves as black women is very important. For me, liberation means that I. I can apply for things without feeling like who I am would actually have an impact on, on the way my, my skills are assessed. Right? And so, you know, the, the, the, the things that I'm sure you, you, you understand, um, those are.
The mark is if, if we were to sort of benchmark what liberation feels like for me, that's what liberation feels like. The, the freedom to approach contexts with my full self. Um, and that is valid for, for my family. Um, and my circle. Mm mm definitely, definitely. Have you ever gone through a, a situation in yourself personally where, um, you know, any of the dualities that you have, whether it's being African or European, whether it's, you know, in your language, um, have you had any of those conflicts and how do you, how have you bridged that for yourself?
I think at some point my, uh, so you mentioned my identity, my. Ghana slash African Identity and my Italian slash European identity. Those identities were definitely in conflict and the way, and, and I knew the way in conflict because of course I lived in a. In a, in societies that perceive me as one thing and I perceive myself as another.
Um, and then I will move, uh, geography and I'll be perceived as something else, or not quite like, uh, who I thought I was. Uh, and so those were the conflicts and I think every, um, Second generation, uh, or first generation is, you know, might be fairly familiar with the way I approach it. And this is something that, in terms of the language to speak on it, that's something that was provided to me.
Um, through an interview I read, uh, that, um, the writer, um, Tai, it was an interview with the singer and writer Moses Sunni and. He was talking about this, um, this issue as well, and, and they were discussing about it. You know, she talked about understanding that there is a third element. There's a third element that is actually neither the first nor the second, but is the sort of the combination of the two.
And so, uh, the, I think the example, uh, the writer gave was to think of your third, of this third element as water. Uh, it is, no, it is no oxygen, and it is no, uh, hydrogen by this. Third element, which creates a completely different, uh, a completely different substance, uh, which is no one or the other. And that's the way I have approached my identity, understanding that I am, I am peculiar, right?
Like it is, it is fair for people to, to, to, to manifest. Uncertainty and to manifest, uh, the surprise. Um, it is fair. And so I also have to, to accept that, accept that it is fair to, for people to have that sentiment and offer who I am as the way I am. Um mm And that's just different. And that's okay. Um, And that's something new.
And the interesting thing is, even though I may be different for that person in that instance, the likelihood of that person encountering someone like me is very high. And therefore, it just so happened that I am the first of many encounters that the person will have. And you know, at some point, It will be the norm for that person.
Exactly. Exactly. Exactly, exactly that. Because like I'm even thinking about some of my friendship circles and a lot of them we're, we are kind of. Uh, anomalies at some points. Um, more so like yourself or one of my other friends, Gideon, she's, um, Ghanaian a Australian and whenever she talks about, you know, her experiences, people always shocked about like, oh, there's some Ghana in Australia, and so that, or there's, west Africa is in Australia.
So that is always quite interesting. That's always like a, a really interesting conversation where she can then actually invite people to, to. Yeah. Be to, to, to, to, to be carried along with her on this journey and to understand more about the proximities of different spaces that she's been on and in and been in.
Um, and I think you are the, it is the same with your experiences. Like people can actually join the journey with you about what it means to be African, European in spaces in Italy and also in spaces in the uk, but also in spaces in Ghana and all the other elements of. Spaces that you, you end up in. And so do you think that travel is essential in the colonial movements?
Absolutely. I think it is. It is. It's very essential. Uh, if there's such a, a phrase that's very essential, uh, seems redundant, but yeah, it is. It is. Uh, I think it is. Um, it is a way to expand our imagination. It is a way to build solidarity. Um, and I think sort of, uh, praying dependence, pan-African movements sort of showed us how powerful that could be, uh, building solidarity across continents, uh, and recognizing that, um, you know, even though we might feel like we are alone, uh, there are actually other people who can, uh, support us and.
To, to, you know, towards the course that we are, we are, uh, advocating for. So yes, I think it's very important. I get surprised when, um, When people, you know, are surprised by, by me, um, and are surprised by, by others who may be, uh, sort of peculiar. That's the word I used before. Um, yeah. And the surprise comes from the fact that.
They have not, you know, exposed themselves to the knowledge. Um, they have not, uh, encountered others. And of course, change is not gonna come to your door. You know, change is not going to, or, or, you know, the sort of different, different realities are not going to knock at your door and say, hello. There's a different reality.
Get to know me. You know, you have to go into the world. Uh, where the different reality is and engage with, with that reality. So even though we are different, how similar our, our needs and our, our, our desires are, I definitely feel that because even when I was in South Africa, I think just being, especially if you are, one thing I always say to people is please go on a solo travel.
Just as a woman, just go on a solo travel, even if it's for a couple days a week. Try and see what that's like, because when I first went to South Africa and I was doing everything by myself, that taught me so much about the context I was in. And how I needed to be part of the furniture almost like I had to.
I basically almost like felt like I was becoming South African, um, and a local citizen, or a local urban dweller, and that allowed me to understand more about colonialism and how easy it is. For us specifically have that have been taught so much in our context about how to take and how much colonialism.
Colonialism is so tied in Be Up seven a gang on, on Apple. Yeah. The Fab Collective music has been playing. You're just kind there to flaunt or you're there just to kind of like. Be about that. But as soon as you actually start becoming an urban dweller, as soon as you start learning about the localities and the local communities and you start investing yourself in, you know, I don't know, different, different community members, or you start understanding kind of like, okay, there's actually a leader in this community that means I need to go to lead, like.
It then, it then places everything so differently, then you are able to understand things in a completely different way, and you are able to interact with people with a lot more care and a lot more, not necessarily empathy, but I would say like a lot more sensitivity. And I think that becomes reciprocal because once you are in a community and they see that you're actually trying, it changes the, the, the dynamic of that relationship or that connection with the community so quickly.
And yeah, I think when I was in South Africa that that experience of being like a lone ranger and kind of walking around allowed me to understand that crap, like. This is, this is, it's not as scary as I thought it was, but also low key. There were times where I was like, oh, I need to, I need to actually like, act like I'm South African.
I need to, I might stand out at the moment, but I need to, I need to really immerse myself in the culture. I. I have one more question, and this is just the last, so yeah. Some of these women that are part of like, um, that are part of the next book are part of also the negative movement, and I've learned quite a lot about how like it's really important to center black women, especially dark-skinned women in the movement of decoloniality.
So what are your thoughts on the current state of Dity and how do you think dark-skinned women being kind of the center of them really shapes the way in which we move forward? I, I haven't done much work on. Gender. Um, and so, um, I can only speak to my perception, um, but the way I feel about it is, um, you know, when it's just one of those things where I, I feel like black women making space for black women requires making space for.
You know, all women, um, because the necessary work that that is done to enable accessible spaces for black women requires welcoming. All women. Yeah. Thank you, Benja. This has been so interesting, but also I just, yeah, I'm honestly just, it's a pleasure just to have you in this chat and to hear more about your journey.
All the topics in this season, touch back to sewn seeds of exchange. If anything in this episode spoke to you at all, I always love hearing thought. And expressions that can be birthed from single collective stories. As I'm on this journey to learn, heal, and design from this space, please note that this is also a personal invitation, and not everything may be relative to you.
Carving your own space is so central, whatever that may be. Remember to follow or subscribe to this podcast and you can find me on Twitter and Instagram at a from mek and join my quarterly newsletter app, www anisha mek.co.